Difference between revisions of "Secondary Defenses 2 (Source)"

Latest revision as of 18:22, 9 March 2009

I’m writing this post to hopefully end all the banter and myth regarding Dodge, Block, Counterattack, Melee/Ranged Defense, Fencers, Pistoleers, Stacking, and the Easter Bunny.

Ok, well, maybe not the Easter Bunny.

What I am about to write is NOT speculation, assumption, or conjecture. It is thoroughly test verified (not the stuff you have seen in the Pistoleer forum, as this was under more controlled conditions), data backed, cross-checked, and Developer confirmed.

Number One: Dodge, Block, and Counterattack Mechanics.

There are only 4 (four) secondary defenses currently in the game. I call them secondary because they come into play AFTER your Melee or Ranged Defense has failed you, and you are supposed to be “hit.” In short, it is a “second-chance” defense.

I will begin by addressing Dodge. Dodge DOES NOT belong to a Fencer. Dodge DOES NOT belong to Pistoleer. Dodge has nothing to do with your profession. Dodge is the secondary defense that every character receives at generation. However at its base value you have less than a 0.1% chance to Dodge (less than 1 in 1000 hits will be Dodged.) It took a long time to verify this one, and constant repetition of the “create untrained newb character-test-delete character” process. But yes, I have actually made a completely untrained newb (didn’t get the training in the tutorial prelude) Dodge an attack. According to my logs it took 2,449 hits to get the first Dodge out of an Entertainer. It took 3,158 hits to get a Dodge out of an Artisan. Only 932 hits for a Medic (That one was lucky I guess). 5,012 hits before the Scout finally Dodged. The Brawler required 2,677 before the big event. None of them had a weapon in hand while testing. From this data I feel very comfortable in saying that the Dodge “seed” is planted in all characters, it is just so unlikely to occur that when it does it probably goes unnoticed. (Side note: Counterattack and Block appeared, too, equally infrequent.)

In order for Dodge (or the others) to become more than just an extremely rare oddity, you must have modifiers to Dodge. Two professions give modifiers to Dodge: Fencer and Pistoleer. So… once you have worked your way up the Fencer or Pistoleer branch you automatically start Dodging more, right? Wrong. I can be a Master Fencer (which I am) and if I don’t have my One-handed Weapon equipped I DO NOT DODGE (Well, except for the <0.1% rarity I referred to.) So what happened? The missing link.

Dodge, the skill, is inherent to the character. However, (and this is important) THE MODIFIERS TO DODGE ARE ONLY ENABLED WHEN A DODGE-LINKED WEAPON IS EQUIPPED. It does not matter if you have a One-handed Weapon or a Pistol, both are Dodge-linked; both activate the Dodge modifiers. Want some proof? Take a Master Fencer with absolutely zero ranged skills and put a generic CDEF Pistol in their hands. Take her into combat. What happens? Dodge, Dodge, Dodge! I certainly didn’t have any “Pistoleer-specific” Dodge modifiers going for me. I Dodged with the same frequency, too. Let go of the Pistol… no Dodge. Grab a Survival Knife… Dodge, Dodge, Dodge. You MUST have a Dodge-linked weapon equipped to access your Dodge modifiers!

Now here’s the kicker. Equip a Polearm… no Dodge. Not even after just under 7,000 hits. But… I did “Block” twice during that time (Although my spam erroneously said “Counterattack”, my partner’s correctly said “Block”… Pikeman need that fixed!). Took up a Rifle… no Dodge. Borrowed a Power Hammer… no Dodge. Carbine…no Dodge. What I discovered it that not only does the weapon you equip enable the modifiers linked to that weapon… it DISABLES the others so they don’t compete. Therefore, Dodge, Block, and Counterattack cannot all work at the same time as you cannot have all the different types of weapons equipped at the same time. With me so far?

As for the Dodge modifiers for Pistoleer and Fencer, YES, THEY DO INDEED STACK WITH EACH OTHER TO MAKE DODGE MORE EFFECTIVE! They HAVE to stack because there is only one Dodge skill, and only one Dodge modifier. (Plus the Developers confirmed they do.) The same goes for the Block modifiers in Pikeman and Rifleman, and the Counterattack modifiers in Swordsman and Carbineer.

Number Two: The Problem

Ok, so why are some claiming foul? Because I can be a Fencer (melee+dodge) and Pistoleer (ranged+dodge) and get the combined Dodge bonus from both by holding only one weapon. So what? Let’s say I wanted to be a Fencer (melee+dodge) and a Rifleman (ranged+block). I can only Block OR Dodge, depending on the weapon I’m holding, and neither with the potency of Fencer/Pistoleer. It doesn’t stop with Fencer/Pistoleer, though. That’s just the FOTM. Let’s check another one: Swordsman (melee+counterattack) and Carbineer (ranged+counterattack). Again, I only need to hold a single weapon to get the bonuses from both professions. If I wanted to be a Pikeman (melee+block) Swordsman (melee+counterattack) Pistoleer (ranged+dodge) I have spent way more points but I still can only hold a single weapon, so I am limited to only one defense with only a single profession’s bonuses.

Do I have a problem with this? Hmm… well, not really. In my view being selective in your templates to achieve your desired goals is part of what this game is about. However, I can understand and empathize with those that feel differently. If I could be a Swordsman (hypothetical 30% counterattack chance) Pistoleer (hypothetical 30% dodge chance) and gain my defense 60% of the time, but half would be dodges, the other have counterattacks, then this would be fair. But the way these are engineered it doesn’t work like that, so I must agree that this is in fact… unfair.

Number Three: What to do about it.

What is the solution? What is going to happen? Well, that’s still up in the air. The Developers have been made aware of the problem. At this point in time they have not made any commitment of what needs to happen because they would need to do some testing of their own to determine if this is in fact unbalancing. If it is determined to be slightly unbalancing, it will be corrected, but most likely it would come after the next big upcoming patches. If it is deemed to be significantly unbalancing, look to see a change sooner.

I would not worry about any single profession getting nerfed… it’s not going to happen. At least… not in regards to this. (Hey… Nerf Happens) The most likely fix would be to separate the Dodge into two “dodge-like” skills with one for Pistols and one for One-handed Weapons; separate Counterattack into two “counterattack-like” skills with one for Two-handed Weapons and one for Carbines; and separate “Block into two “Block-like” skills with one for Polearms and one for Rifles. Defense Acuity for unarmed doesn’t seem to work anyways so there is no threat of inordinate stacking. (Just kidding TKs! It’s the fact that only TKs have it that keep it from being a stacking issue.) Ideally, the Devs would prefer, if the game engine and development and coding time would permit, is for all of these to inter-stack (unlink them from the weapons). But IF that were to ever happen it would be quite some time in the future, so I wouldn’t get my hopes up.

Number Four: And Other Stackable Mods like Melee Defense?

Does this mean that other stackable stuff like Melee Defense, Ranged Defense, and Defense Versus X modifiers will be made unstackable, too? NO. It doesn’t mean that. That is no unfairness associated with these defenses because Melee Defense from any profession that possesses it stacks equally well with any other class that possesses it. Same with Ranged Defense, and the entire Defense Versus X series. Therefore there is no reason to change them.

Summary:

1. Currently, Fencer Dodge modifiers stack (to become more powerful) with Pistoleer Dodge modifiers; but ONLY work with the appropriate weapon equipped, which prevents Counterattacks, and Blocks regardless of modifiers. 2. Currently, Swordsman Counterattack modifiers stack (to become more powerful) with Carbineer Counterattack modifiers; but ONLY work with the appropriate weapon equipped, which prevents Blocks and Dodges regardless of modifiers. 3. Currently, Pikeman Block modifiers stack (to become more powerful) with Rifleman Block modifiers; but ONLY work with the appropriate weapon equipped, which prevents Dodges and Counterattacks regardless of modifiers. 4. Currently, Melee Defense, Ranged Defense, and the entire Defense Versus X series all stack (to become more powerful) from every source in which they were gained. 5. Yes the Developers are aware of all the above. 6. No individual profession is planned to be nerfed down to compensate. 7. Separation of the Dodge, Counterattack, and Block are a possibility IF through testing the Developers themselves find the stacking issues to be significantly unbalancing and unfair. 8. Separation of the other stackable Defenses (Melee Defense, etc.) are NOT anticipated as they perform the same for all professions 9. Raphayl never wants to make another untrained newbie character and keep track of tens of thousands of hits and parse them for Dodges, Counterattacks, and Blocks again.

I hope this answers most of the questions and addresses the wild speculation regarding this. I also hope the Developers do not consider my generalities of things they have mentioned to be too specific and get mad at me. But something had to stop the madness. I can’t take another Pistoleer/Fencer/Stacking/Dodge/Uber post clogging up the forum or I’ll pop.

Message Edited by Raphayl on 12-09-2003 10:53 AM [/quote:9877893d26]